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Thread: February 2021 Loaders - Downsizers

  1. #325
    Chief Moderator (my happy place :) Leez's Avatar
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    There is a lot of discussion lately about beef in P2, so this is a general guideline post for you to take into consideration.

    I don't want a lighthearted comment I made above about finding lean beef to be construed that it is always a safe choice for P2. It can be problematic because of fat content. It is a good choice for maintenance, however.

    I want this to be clear to people new to the protocol that are reading or may read this topic:
    The original protocol does not allow American beef in P2.

    The reason is the fat marbling that occurs in even the leanest cuts of beef. You may not be able to see it, but it is there. There is no effective way to get around it. To use any kind of american beef is a break from the original protocol. It is of course, your decision whether to chance it or not.

    Personally, I do not use beef at all in P2.

    We have found that whenever issues are encountered during the HCG diet, the first place to look is is anything that deviates from the original protocol. It is remarkable that more times than not, fixing that addresses the problem.
    At goal since 2015. \(ᵔᴥᵔ)/ Total HCG loss: 77# [5'5" 210-133] Maintenance strategies overview

    A full review of my experience with DietDoc and how the round progressed can be found here: my Diet Doc review and my Hcg coaching blog is here. If you've found my posts helpful, please consider using this DietDoc link on your next HCG order. (your forum discount still applies)

    Medical Disclaimer: My statements are not intended to treat, diagnose or cure any medical condition.

  2. #326
    Super Member! Dubbles's Avatar
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    I didn’t realize we weren’t supposed to have beef at all, but I actually only had it once during my p2 , and barely had it during planned interruption. One thing P2 taught me is how much I enjoy fish and chicken Both.

  3. #327
    Chief Moderator (my happy place :) Leez's Avatar
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    I know. Its pretty amazing how you can be satisfied with just chicken and fish for weeks on end.
    Viva la HCG magic. ^_^

    The protocol also allows veal, so those hankering for something a bit more substantive have that option. The problem with beef is not that it is not allowed, but that american beef is not allowed because of fat content. It has to be super lean to work for P2.

    Beef would have been fine to have more frequently in your interruption, and of course, all beef cuts are fine in P3.
    At goal since 2015. \(ᵔᴥᵔ)/ Total HCG loss: 77# [5'5" 210-133] Maintenance strategies overview

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  4. #328
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    Oh no! I thought organic beef was okay!

  5. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leez View Post
    There is a lot of discussion lately about beef in P2, so this is a general guideline post for you to take into consideration.

    I don't want a lighthearted comment I made above about finding lean beef to be construed that it is always a safe choice for P2. it can be problematic because of fat content. It is a good choice for maintenance, however.

    I want this to be clear to people new to the protocol that are reading or may read this topic:
    The original protocol does not allow American beef in P2.

    The reason is the fat marbling that occurs in even the leanest cuts of beef. You may not be able to see it, but it is there. There is no effective way to get around it. To use any kind of american beef is a break from the original protocol. It is of course, your decision whether to chance it or not.

    Personally, I do not use beef at all in P2.

    We have found that whenever issues are encountered during the HCG diet, the first place to look is is anything that deviates from the original protocol. It is remarkable that more times than not, fixing that addresses the problem..
    I’m going to respectfully disagree with this. Beef is allowed if it’s lean enough. It is true that a long time a go Americans did not have access to extra lean beef, not even 96% lean, so when Dr. Simmeons wrote the protocol, it would have been accurate that American beef would not fit the diet profile. Veal has more fat than extra lean ground beef. Since 1970, US beef products are about 44% leaner than they once were. Beef from Italy is also leaner now than when the manuscript was written. Check out this: https://www.carnisostenibili.it/en/i...easingly-lean/

    I believe 96% lean beef is close to the Italian beef profile back in Dr. Simmeons day. As the article states, it was fattier then than now. If you can find 98% lean, even better. This is likely leaner than the beef officially sanctioned by Simmeons back in the 1950’s.

  6. #330
    Chief Moderator (my happy place :) Leez's Avatar
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    I went back and read the passage addressing this in the protocol, and beef is in the menu list, so it is not that it is disallowed in P2 for those that thought that is what was being said. It is because of the marbling issue of American beef. I'll amend my posts to avoid confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by protocol
    While this diet works satisfactorily in Italy, certain modifications have to be made in other countries. For instance, American beef has almost double the caloric value of South Italian beef, which is not marbled with fat. This marbling is impossible to remove. In America, therefore, low-grade veal should be used for one meal and fish....for the other meal.
    The article from the Italian website is interesting, but notice it relates to the 1970's era. That is good information, but not quite enough information to be sure you are making the right comparison. Fat content may have been less two decades earlier.

    Frankly, I've never gone back and researched what the fat content of South Italian beef was in the 1950's. A quick search didn't turn up anything. But that would be an interesting factoid, if it could be determined by a reliable source just what the fat content was at the time. It would then allow a more accurate judgement of whether your piece of beef was lean enough. If anyone has documentation of that, please link us to it. It would be most helpful in resolving the question definitively.

    Thank you for your thoughts and for posting the link to the article. It caused me to rearrange my thinking on this a bit. The "lean enough" question is still a bit up in the air for me. 96% lean is still 4% fat, which is higher than any other proteins allowed. Granted, the milk allowed in the protocol was most likely whole milk since non-fat was not specified, and the legal definition of "milk" in the '50s was whole milk which would have likely been 3.5% butterfat, from some old records I found. But that would be a very small amount of fat from 1 Tablespoon milk. For the beef, fat percentage would be more impactful, as one could potentially be eating nearly a half pound daily.

    Considering all of that, I believe it would be safer to stay closer to 98% lean if possible.
    Organic is always desirable.
    Grassfed and grass finished is optimum.
    At goal since 2015. \(ᵔᴥᵔ)/ Total HCG loss: 77# [5'5" 210-133] Maintenance strategies overview

    A full review of my experience with DietDoc and how the round progressed can be found here: my Diet Doc review and my Hcg coaching blog is here. If you've found my posts helpful, please consider using this DietDoc link on your next HCG order. (your forum discount still applies)

    Medical Disclaimer: My statements are not intended to treat, diagnose or cure any medical condition.

  7. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by justgitterdone View Post
    You might be right Leez, but it looks super duper lean, leaner than the 96%, so I think it will make a good P2 choice.

    Good luck with your interruption Tracy! And welcome back to P2 Dubbles.

    My P2 is still moving along. Still strict original protocol. Yíall may recall, I didnít weigh for a few days. I weighed Yesterday and today and have had losses both days so happy about that. My problem right now is that I am dealing with extreme fatigue. I donít ever remember feeling this tired before on rounds so Iím not sure whatís up. Iíve been reading past threads and some recommended bumping up protein temporarily so I think I may try that tmw in the form of a P2 compliant protein shake and see if that helps.
    One of the things that seems to help me is increasing my Celtic Sea Salt intake if I'm feeling tired, weak, or light headed. Glad your step away from the scale and return to it reflected what you wanted to see!

  8. #332
    Super Member! Dubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justgitterdone View Post
    I’m going to respectfully disagree with this. Beef is allowed if it’s lean enough. It is true that a long time a go Americans did not have access to extra lean beef, not even 96% lean, so when Dr. Simmeons wrote the protocol, it would have been accurate that American beef would not fit the diet profile. Veal has more fat than extra lean ground beef. Since 1970, US beef products are about 44% leaner than they once were. Beef from Italy is also leaner now than when the manuscript was written. Check out this: https://www.carnisostenibili.it/en/i...easingly-lean/

    I believe 96% lean beef is close to the Italian beef profile back in Dr. Simmeons day. As the article states, it was fattier then than now. If you can find 98% lean, even better. This is likely leaner than the beef officially sanctioned by Simmeons back in the 1950’s.

    Good morning JGD! There is probably nothing I truly enjoy more than a good hamburger, I love meatloaf--but the really lean ground beef, at least ones I have tried are not nearly as tasty to me as the ones with fat in them. Oh my, wish I wasn't like that, I do love the fats in foods, helps with satiety, for me anyway. So I basically stick with fish and chicken, where it isn't missed as much. I hardly use in P2, because of that--only used Laura's Lean beef--and don't know if it is me, but don't enjoy as much. I believe her brand is 96% lean. And I LOVE hamburger.

  9. #333
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    Well, I had a tiny downward scale movement but not much going on in that department for past couple of days. I felt a little better yesterday, meaning not quite as tired as the day before, so that is good. I will be doing my hard workouts again today and Thursday so I won’t be weighing again until Saturday or Sunday. I’m actually finding the scale breaks very helpful mentally as it allows me not to obsess as much. To any newbies who may be reading my post, not weighing everyday is not something I would recommend on your first few rounds. I think it’s important to weigh everyday to understand your trends and patterns. Since I’ve done a few, I have that data from past rounds that I can look back on. I’m also very comfortable with my menus and don’t need to question whether I ate something I shouldn’t have. I’m pretty much POP with the exception of adding in extra protein occasionally. I eat both fruits and both melbas. I do not believe in trying to do P2 super low carb is helpful. In fact, I think it may be harmful in the long run, especially for women. Some years ago I got caught up in the thought that P2 would be more successful cutting out fruit and melbas, so I have done rounds without them. My losses weren’t much different than with them in, and if you do have slightly better loss, it’s just water weight and comes back the minute you add carbs back in. This is not a low carb diet. It is an extremely low calorie and low fat diet.

    Regarding ground beef, I still believe 96% extra lean American beef today is very likely as lean (or leaner) as the Italian beef in 1950’s. I have found a few articles that discuss how much leaner American beef is now as opposed to a long time ago. And yes Leez, I’ve thought about the fact that 1 T of milk is allowed as well, and although it’s only 1 T, it is a very high % of fat at .5 grams. On days I eat extra lean beef I forego my 1 T of milk and I only eat the beef for 1 meal, never twice in one day. I feel confident that I am within the guidelines of the original protocol. Too bad Dr. Simmeons is not here today to update the protocol as I’m sure there would likely be other updates as well...

    Dubbles, I agree, a hamburger with 96% lean beef is not nearly as tasty. I don’t do burgers in P2. I typically scramble it up and cook in a skillet and usually eat over romaine with a dressing I make made from sugar free ketchup, mustard and pickle juice or make a cabbage stir fry or sometimes I make a chili.

  10. #334
    Chief Moderator (my happy place :) Leez's Avatar
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    Protocol note for anyone wondering about exercise in P2 and if they should start it:

    The exercise guideline in the protocol is that it is perfectly fine to continue whatever your body is used to during P2. If you are a construction worker, you will have enough strength to continue doing your job. You may notice that you have less endurance, but you will be able to do it. The strenuous activity you are used to doing won't inhibit your weight loss progress. The same is true for any intense workout you have already been doing regularly before starting your round.

    It not recommended, however, to start a new strenuous exercise program during P2. For one, it will be super difficult to make it through because you won't have the endurance, and the new stress will result in muscle inflammation which will cause your body to retain water. This confuses scale results and can mess with your mind. And it is physically detrimental because the way muscle builds is by protein. Heavy workouts will cause tiny muscle tears, and when those tears heal, new muscle can be formed. On P2, you are taking in the barest minimum level of protein. It is not enough protein to repair the little muscle tears the exercise has caused and increase your muscle mass. The extra protein needed just isn't there.

    A good P2 activity that is fine for anyone, even if you are not used to it is a 20-30 minute walk each day, outdoors if possible. Its good for your mental health, raises oxygen levels, and gives a gentle massage to your organs which benefits the digestive processes.

    I was out walking today in the 65 degree midwest sunshine and thoroughly enjoyed it. What a glorious change from the subzero temps we endured in February! The birdie songs even seemed happier than normal. ^_^
    At goal since 2015. \(ᵔᴥᵔ)/ Total HCG loss: 77# [5'5" 210-133] Maintenance strategies overview

    A full review of my experience with DietDoc and how the round progressed can be found here: my Diet Doc review and my Hcg coaching blog is here. If you've found my posts helpful, please consider using this DietDoc link on your next HCG order. (your forum discount still applies)

    Medical Disclaimer: My statements are not intended to treat, diagnose or cure any medical condition.

  11. #335
    Super Member! FlirtyFlo's Avatar
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    Leez,
    Thanks, As I said, I am sure my slower losses was as a result of initiating a walking regime of a minimum of 7.5 km (4.7 miles) a day at a rate of 1km (.64 miles) per 10 minutes..... It was over an extremely pressurized period and I needed that for stress relief, I am not sorry for doing it as I do feel the better for it, with the exception of last week Friday and Saturday evenings, I did not feel that i could not cope, I have the endurance, but I can definitely vouch for the fact that its not a good idea in P2.... But Now I am set up for hopefully a great P3...

    Sometime we need to test these things, right?
    ~AKA Yvonne SA~
    Greetings from Sunny South Africa!
    Round 3 - Loading 16 Apr '21
    Round 2 - Jan-Mar '21 - lost 5kgs/11lbs
    Round 1 - Sept-Nov '20 - lost 10kgs/22lbs

  12. #336
    Super Member! Dubbles's Avatar
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    Yvonne, you are definitely set up for a great P3! Will be there soon, good for you. I plan on starting a pretty vigorous exercise program in p3, Not crazy vigorous, but active. In the summer I love to do water exercises and run in place in water, might look silly, but is less stress on my crazy knee.



    Real quick, AFM: VLC day # 4 AFTER PI, down another pound. I like it, Have lost the load weight and extra 2 lbs. So it is good. Getting much more used to foray back to P2 now. My mind seemed to settle into it last night. Sunday and Monday were really difficult for me, kept wanting to snack, when that really isn't allowed much on P2, felt like I was missing the richness of fats in diet. I don't know, was just wanting more food like you are allowed on P3. But I'm in a better place now. Hope everyone else is doing well this morning.

    I haven 't read all postings yet on forums, but have to take my dogs someplace this morning, twill check in with others when I get back home.

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