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Thread: an experiment of sorts - A super short round

  1. #73
    I really don't know to be honest. Obviously longer rounds are better. My original thoughts towards the short round were that it could be a good idea for people who have already done a few full rounds as maintenance or if you are close to goal. And in my situation, I had already done a longer round (28 days, my longest yet) about two months prior. And I did well in P3 but I wouldn't call anything stable. I still had some big jumps in the scale. But the weight always worked its way back down. The deeper I went into P3 the better the scale treated me and the tighter the fluctuations became. So you can say I "stabilized". But before I began my short round I spent a week on the road on a sales trip. Ate keto the whole week. Didn't overeat. Was very busy so many times skipped meals altogether or substituted a small snack. Did drink a fair amount of wine is the worst behavior I can point to however (but I drank wine throughout P3 with no negative consequences). Got back home and my weight had jumped 6lbs from before I left.

    So where is the stabilization? There is none is the answer. I think we are all chasing and expecting something that simply isn't there. My opinion is the best we can do is get our bodies used to being at a certain weight. But as soon as habits go south, the scale will meander northward. This protocol is great and I endorse it wholeheartedly but there is no magic here. You don't get a pass just because you went 40 days instead of 21. But this is all physical attributes and I am in no way addressing the mental side of things which would be an entirely different post. If followed correctly the mental benefits to this protocol far exceed the physical results.

    Which brings us to today. Still losing weight. Yesterday, lost .8lbs to 214.4. Today down another 1.8lbs to 212.6, which puts me exactly 2lbs over LDW. The big jumps on weekend are still annoying but it is encouraging to see weight go back down towards LDW. Nice restaurant meal tonight with the wife to celebrate our anniversary. Steakhouse so plenty P3 options on the menu. Another weekend coming up so need to keep focused.

  2. #74
    Super Member! Dubbles's Avatar
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    Thanks Jeff for update. You are not doing badly at all. In your 2 lb window now, that's good. If nothing else the protocol certainly encourages mindfulness, which curtails out of control spikes upwards. That's when things get really out of control. The weekend jumps I guess mainly have to do with more social activity, maybe eating out more--then more salt intake and water retention, flucuations? We really don't know exactly how our favorite restaurants prepare their foods, if or how they add sugars and salts to the preparation of our favorite foods. And as for traveling, I think that goes without saying, we probably snack or partake a little more than we realize, or we do at home. Anyway, your 212 number sounds pretty good to me. That may be much easier to maintain than 210.

    Hope with focus this weekend there won't be any huge spikes come Monday morning. Hate messing with y0ur thread, but I am really concerned about p3 this time too. Day 5 of p3 and I seem to be going in the wrong direction. Since start of p3, I am now .2 oz. over my 2 lb window. I had no wiggle room from transition days, which I really feel is messing with my numbers--but it is what it is. Today I should be doing a correction day, the very first I have had to do this year, but I already gave in and had breakfast. Still think I'll do the steak and apple only the rest of the day, least that's the plan.

    Happy Anniversary to both you and your wife. Absoolutely doable on p3 at a steakhouse! Enjoy! Have a great weekend!

  3. #75
    hang in there Dubbles. I think another factor in our situations is that we have been on this protocol in some form or fashion for a pretty long time now. I see in another thread where you mentioned adjusting LDW. I would argue against that. Just ignore the rules where you feel you have to do a steak day every time you get outside of the margin. I was way over this week and didn't do a steak day and thankfully the weight came down. Once suggestion is to just skip breakfast so you are doing a less benign fasting interval. I absolutely hate going all day without a meal. It is miserable.

    I believe that for our situations, we should just ride them out. Control what we can control. But don't move the goalposts. Keep the same LDW and stay on course without steak days if at all possible. Of course if you lock down your P3 diet to more trustworthy foods (for me, that means eliminating anything nut related, heavier beef like short ribs, heavy servings of dairy, heavy servings of wine (eg: more than 1 bottle)) and the weight is still going up, them maybe a steak day is necessary to break that trend.

    And to note, you or anybody else is more than welcome to post their experiences on this thread. I think it is beneficial to the subject and really helps the conversation as a whole. The more the merrier.

  4. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonblack View Post
    I really don't know to be honest. Obviously longer rounds are better. My original thoughts towards the short round were that it could be a good idea for people who have already done a few full rounds as maintenance or if you are close to goal. And in my situation, I had already done a longer round (28 days, my longest yet) about two months prior. And I did well in P3 but I wouldn't call anything stable. I still had some big jumps in the scale. But the weight always worked its way back down. The deeper I went into P3 the better the scale treated me and the tighter the fluctuations became. So you can say I "stabilized". But before I began my short round I spent a week on the road on a sales trip. Ate keto the whole week. Didn't overeat. Was very busy so many times skipped meals altogether or substituted a small snack. Did drink a fair amount of wine is the worst behavior I can point to however (but I drank wine throughout P3 with no negative consequences). Got back home and my weight had jumped 6lbs from before I left.

    So where is the stabilization? There is none is the answer. I think we are all chasing and expecting something that simply isn't there. My opinion is the best we can do is get our bodies used to being at a certain weight. But as soon as habits go south, the scale will meander northward. This protocol is great and I endorse it wholeheartedly but there is no magic here. You don't get a pass just because you went 40 days instead of 21. But this is all physical attributes and I am in no way addressing the mental side of things which would be an entirely different post. If followed correctly the mental benefits to this protocol far exceed the physical results.

    Which brings us to today. Still losing weight. Yesterday, lost .8lbs to 214.4. Today down another 1.8lbs to 212.6, which puts me exactly 2lbs over LDW. The big jumps on weekend are still annoying but it is encouraging to see weight go back down towards LDW. Nice restaurant meal tonight with the wife to celebrate our anniversary. Steakhouse so plenty P3 options on the menu. Another weekend coming up so need to keep focused.
    I disagree, Jeff. I am experiencing fantastic stabilizing right now. There are minor fluctuations that are normal but staying anywhere between those 4 pounds is stabilizing. It is kind of magic actually. I am now in P4 and had cheesecake with no effect on the scale. My mind is pretty blown. I will definitely be chasing this again in a next round knowing what I know.

    I still suspect that drinking affects you, especially since it coincides with your weekend gain. I may be wrong!

    Happy anniversary! Enjoy your dinner!
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  5. #77
    The key phrase is "right now". Anybody can perform well in the short term. Especially if that short term in question is close to a completed protocol round. Anybody can have hiccups in the short term too. That is not stabilization. Just a small data set. But I am in no way talking down where you are. You are doing great and you have every reason to be super excited. We all do, to be honest. Everybody here has taken a huge step towards success in a very difficult area. I wish there was more of us on this path to be honest. But for all of us, the work is never going to be done. That is the sad truth. We signed up for an every day fight.

    I am in no way minimizing the importance of P3. Just trying to take all of my experience with this protocol as well with what I have learned from others over a very long time of observation to convey a pragmatic and realistic view of it. My argument is that a succesful phase 3 doesn't "stabilize" your weight. What it does is keep your weight in range of your LDW for such a long times that your body gets used to being there. Not a fact, just my opinion. With proper habits moving forward you will have a fighting chance to stay there. As soon as those habits fall off, the scale will go northward. And the fact that you completed a 40 day round or a perfect phase 3 isn't going to save you from yourself if your newly found good habits do not remain.

    There are two basic camps in terms of HCG protocol. The "literalists" and the "rogues". Too many people focus on rules while the other focuses on finding ways to get around the rules and still get the desired results. I think there is a lot of great things in this protocol. It works for me where nothing else seems to get it done. But we spend so much time arguing over what it is and what it isn't. I am not even sure Dr Simeons ever had a 100% grasp on why it worked and why it didn't. Case in point is the silly notion that it was bad to mix vegetables. What!? But we know that it works very well in losing weight. But the protocol gets an incomplete grade on its ability to keep the weight off long term. But if the weight comes back, it is our fault, not the protocol's. That is why I will never fully be in the camp of the literalists. Just too much nuance that is not fully understood. Many times we are feeling around in the dark with our best guesses.

    In terms of me, the cause of my spikes is likely way more nuanced than to be able to point at one factor. Wouldn't life be so simple if all of our problems could simply be boiled down to a single input? Truth is, things are never that simple. I do agree that wine consumption is definitely a part. Perhaps a big part. But I had two glasses last night and lost nearly 2lbs this morning. On balance, drinking wine isn't a problem. But over-indulging IS a problem. And I definitely over-indulged Saturday night. Much calmer Sunday and Monday. But over-doing on alcohol can really mess with your body in terms of water retention. I can also point to many other factors as well over last weekend. Much reduced water intake (I drink way more water during the week at the office than I do on weekends. Last weekend was a drastic reduction. I think this is a big driver too. I simply have to drink more water on weekends). Tennis (played for 3 hours Saturday, 4.5 hours Monday). Certain foods (had mixed nuts, fresh sausage and cheese at a pool party on Sunday. Also, heavier portions overall of protien). Sleep habits. Didn't sleep as well due to drinking (Saturday night) and schedule. And that probably isn't all either.

    Some small adjustments here and there and some larger ones in other areas. But hey, I am still in the game and working through it. Overall, this round is going fairly well. But I would have given my body a much smoother ride had I opted for a full 3 weeks instead of a shorter round is a notion that is not difficult for me to argue with. To wit, I doubt any of my future rounds will be 2 weeks, instead will opt for the minimum of 23 days VLCD.

  6. #78
    Chief Moderator (my happy place :) Leez's Avatar
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    The discussion prompted this thought for me: Perhaps one take-away from the P3 discipline is that it lasts 3 weeks, and that is the time the experts say it takes to establish a new habit. During that time, you are forced to learn ways to be satisfied without having starches and sugars with every meal. It makes it easier to see (and accept) that limiting those things can be a sustainable habit.
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  7. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Leez View Post
    The discussion prompted this thought for me: Perhaps one take-away from the P3 discipline is that it lasts 3 weeks, and that is the time the experts say it takes to establish a new habit. During that time, you are forced to learn ways to be satisfied without having starches and sugars with every meal. It makes it easier to see that limiting those things can be a sustainable habit.
    Good point, Leez!

    Stabilization is measured over a period of time as far as I understand it. Up a little, down a little, and back to an average, even with the occasional higher carb or off diet meal/treat. I do call that stabilizing. If I were to keep eating in a way that is not good for me, and let's be honest, there is much about our conventional way of eating that is not good and we just want to get away with it, I will of course gain weight. But maintaining an average with healthy food in an amount that satisfies me, and include an occasional splurge, now that is pretty awesome and a life that seems normal to me!
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  8. #80
    Weight this morning 214.5 which is up 1.9 from Friday's weight of 12.6 which was right on the upper end of the 2lb window from LDW. Played a ton of tennis this weekend. Really beat up physically. But also playing every night this week catching up on recent rain outs. So my body will not be able to catch up but that is okay. Food wise, dinner was good Friday night but a bit small. Which is fine. We split a filet mignon, 8oz. Creamed spinach, salad and some wine. Didn't weigh Saturday. Weight at 213.8 yesterday.

    Still a bit of a bump up but not nearly as bad as the previous 2 weekends so I am happy with that. Pretty certain the scale will go down this week and am hoping to be back to 210 by weeks end. Travelling the next week and a half beginning next Tuesday on vacation. Going to be difficult to keep weight down but will stay on keto wherever possible.

  9. #81
    Super Member! Dubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonblack View Post
    Weight this morning 214.5 which is up 1.9 from Friday's weight of 12.6 which was right on the upper end of the 2lb window from LDW. Played a ton of tennis this weekend. Really beat up physically. But also playing every night this week catching up on recent rain outs. So my body will not be able to catch up but that is okay. Food wise, dinner was good Friday night but a bit small. Which is fine. We split a filet mignon, 8oz. Creamed spinach, salad and some wine. Didn't weigh Saturday. Weight at 213.8 yesterday.

    Still a bit of a bump up but not nearly as bad as the previous 2 weekends so I am happy with that. Pretty certain the scale will go down this week and am hoping to be back to 210 by weeks end. Travelling the next week and a half beginning next Tuesday on vacation. Going to be difficult to keep weight down but will stay on keto wherever possible.
    The uptick isn't that bad, not really for your weekends, Jeff. Have to say I must be a much bigger eater than the two of you, no way am I splitting a 8 oz filet mignon! Maybe everything will be down a little, where you'd like it before your vacation next week. Big vacation plans?

  10. #82
    The small steak wasn’t by design. Just a misunderstanding. We have been coming to this place for nearly 20 years. Normally order the chateaubriand for 2 which is about a 12 oz center tenderloin roast. Well they went cheap and changed it an 8 out filet that they carve at the table. Really idiotic because chateaubriand means something. They cannot just change it to a small steak and call it whatever. Either way had enough food and the company was great.

    Going to Big Bend and Marfa. Been wanting to do this for a long time. Really not a trip centered around fine dining. A lot of sight seeing and hiking. Cannot wait.

  11. #83
    down .5lbs to 214 yesterday and another .7lbs to 213.3 today. It feels like my set-point will could be somewhere around 212 instead of 210.6. The upcoming vacation is looming and curious how that is going to go, scale wise. I will bring my scale and weigh every day to at least keep my mind in the game. We will be in a part of the world that doesn't have a large assortment of restaurants. That can be a good thing and a bad thing because at times, I could have very few P3 options depending on the restaurant.

    Have not had a break from tennis since last Friday. Playing again today, tomorrow. Off Friday. Then playing Saturday, Sunday and Monday before hitting the road. Dealing with allergies right now as I usually do for some reason every June.

  12. #84
    Super Member! Dubbles's Avatar
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    I've gone on vacation before with scale in suitcase (have a small travel scale), and it can be helpful. Will you be gone for a week or more? All you can do is eat as mindfully as possible, while enjoying the vacation. Seriously, I would enjoy and not stress as best I could. If you are hiking, and busy, you may be surprised, and at this time of the year, hopefully you will have some fresh food options. At one time wasn't your goal weight 220? Maybe I'm wrong, but stablizing at 210-212 seems like a pretty good stablization point, and a lot has been lost. You play tennis so much, so many calories burned, can't imagine why that scale doesn't always co-operate. Curious, do you ever get tired of all the tennis, or do you enjoy it completely.?

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