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View Poll Results: Does Dr. Woliner's argument hold water?

Voters
98. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, Dr. Woliner references the statements he makes.

    2 2.04%
  • Yes, the argument sounds good, but I haven't checked out his references to know for sure.

    3 3.06%
  • Yes, but I still disagree with him. I lost weight with hCG and it worked for me!

    58 59.18%
  • No. Dr. Woliner is full of it. He made all this stuff up.

    35 35.71%
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Thread: Dr. Woliner's views on hCG and weight loss

  1. #25
    Retired HDI Tech Guy
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    Lets keep this thread on track and discuss the original idea of the poster. Personal attacks are not welcome here and those wanting to know more can perform their own research.

    Update: All offending posts regarding personal attacks have been removed.

  2. #26
    I was out and about today at an organic hydroponic farm, so I apologize in letting a whole day go by to respond to your thoughtful posts. This post of mine might be a little long-winded, but I’ll do my best to be succinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas View Post
    Thank you for your well wishes and I am heartened to hear you acknowledge the current state of affairs regarding food recommendations and that the pushing of them by both Nutritionists and Doctors is unhelpful.
    Veritas, thank you for your kind note. There are many inappropriate things recommended by medical doctors, dietitians, and other health professionals. When I saw the R.D. in my residency “pull out the rubber chicken” and demonstrate to patients “portion sizes”, I thought, “What the heck is she thinking?” I then, on my own time, pulled 30 of her charts, of patients with whom she was attempting to help them with their excessive weight. No one, not a one, lost weight. 3 stayed stable. And, over the period of 3 years, the rest all gained weight, about 5 pounds a year on average. I actually tried to get her fired for teaching us stuff that didn’t work (fat chance for just a medical resident to get a faculty member fired).

    Now I do have some friends that are dietitians, they aren’t all “shills for the dairy industry” or other food industry, or persons who “don’t think”. But, I will agree with you Veritas. Just because someone has a MD, DO, ARNP, PA-C, or RD after their name, doesn’t mean the advice they give you is necessary helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas View Post
    I wish you no harm and have no issue with differing views, I do think you will meet hostility on this board from many, one of the obvious reasons being the anger around how mislead we have been.
    You said that! ;-&

    Quote Originally Posted by agaperags View Post
    P.S. I agree with you about KT, I don't like the man.
    It looks like there are at least two things that people on this board and I agree upon. Kevin Trudeau just lost his appeal, so hopefully he’ll have to pay up the $37.6 million fine he owes for defrauding people. (BTW, when people signed up for his website, he sold their credit card numbers, started charging them $71/month, etc. …)

    On Nov. 29, 2011, Trudeau lost his 2010 appeal in the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals. The court found that the $37.6 million fine for violating his 2004 settlement with the Federal Trade Commission was appropriate as Trudeau had aired 32,000 infomercials and described the figure as "conservative."[74][75] The court considered sales only from the 800 number used to place orders and excluded internet and store sales.[74][75] Additionally, the court found that requiring Trudeau to make a $2 million performance bond prior to participating in an infomercial was constitutional.[74]
    74. ^ a b c Forward, Joe (Nov. 30, 2011). "Infomercial guru must reimburse $37.6 million for misleading consumers". State Bar of Wisconsin. http://www.wisbar.org/AM/Template.cf...ntentID=107216. Retrieved 5 December 2011.
    75. ^ a b Baynes, Terry; Jonathan Stempel (Nov 29, 2011). "TV pitchman Trudeau loses appeal of $37.6 million fine". Reuters. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7AS2P720111129. Retrieved 5 December 2011


    Quote Originally Posted by redefiningme View Post
    We are not ignorant of the ploy of the FDA, food companies, weight loss companies, exercise companies, and pharmas who DESIRE to keep us fat so they can profit wildly.
    I agree that Big Pharma doesn’t want to “cure” disease, they just want to “manage it” so they can make money on residual payments, month after month, sick patients buying their drugs. Hypertension, High Cholesterol, and Diabetes were just the start. Now, Rheumatoid Arthritis, HIV, and Cancer, they want to treat them forever with their patented drugs…. The FDA, due to the “licensing fees” they collect from Big Pharma, as well as the money that Big Pharma pays lobbyists to pay off Congress, makes them shills for Big Pharma to boot. (Wow… 3 things we agree upon! Let’s see how many more we can get up to in one message board post!)

    Quote Originally Posted by redefiningme View Post
    Sounds like your former fat clients have found HCG and you are no longer making money like you used to?
    Actually, it is the other way around. I have seen former hCG patients come to me after they have lost hair, lost muscle, got weaker, got hemorrhagic ovarian cysts, etc. As alcoholswab poignantly pointed out, the fees I charge are on the high side, so I wind up seeing patients after they have tried other things, and not done well. Most often, it is when they’ve tried conventional MD medicine (statins for cholesterol, anti-depressants for depression, Synthroid for hypothyroidism, pain pills for fibromyalgia, etc.) – and they haven’t got the results they wanted. Other times, it has been when “an alternative medicine person” made them sicker, scamming them out of lots of money in the process. A body-builder (not a doctor) was arrested http://florida.arrests.org/Arrests/Brian_Yusem_5710825/, after one of his ex-patients, became my patient, and I realized that he wasn’t allowed to prescribe Human Growth Hormone, Testosterone, and Thyroid Hormone, much less bill her $13,000 for it. For more on Brian Yusem and how he got NFL football player Tim Couch banned from the NFL for using performance enhancing drugs, this article is perhaps the most profound … http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...rt2couch082807. (BTW, Brian Yusem also sold the “hCG Diet” to his clients.)


    Quote Originally Posted by PamelaDO View Post
    "No one likes to be played for a fool. Dr. G. Michael Steelman, editor of the American Journal of Bariatric Medicine stated at the ASBP annual conference in November 2010, “This is going to explode, just like phen/fen [26].” I have to agree." You mean phen/fen was BAD even though the FDA said it was GOOD? And now they are saying HCG is bad, does that mean it's good?!?! Seems like it!
    Actually, I was quoting Dr. Steelman when he said that weight-loss doctors didn’t full understand phen-fen, but started prescribing (and dispensing) it by the ton, because there was a lot of money to be made by selling it from their offices. Because doctors didn’t do their due diligence, patients got hurt, and the doctors that were big phen-fen prescribers, they looked like shysters who merely wanted to exploit their patients for the purpose of their financial gain. I fear the same thing is happening with hCG, where there are many bad actors out there (not everyone is a bad actor), who are seeing hCG as an easy way to make a buck (as opposed to a potentially useful tool to get their patients weight (and health) in a better state.

    Pamela, what I guess I’m saying is, “If you found out your doctor knew a therapy (hCG, not the diet itself) was nothing but a placebo, touted it as being the necessary ingredient in your weight loss program, advertised it in a way that made the drug a misbranded drug (a felony), prescribed it and dispensed it from his/her office in such a way that restricted your choice of pharmacy (so you had to buy it from him at an inflated price compared to the price that you could have gotten elsewhere), how would you feel?”

    Not all doctors are like that. Grammy1952 said her physician wrote prescriptions and she bought her hCG at a pharmacy of her own choice. So, just as not all doctors are good, not all are bad either …

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandma of 7 View Post
    My sister had bariatric surgery … Of course the bariatric docs don't like hcg. Where would they make their money if we all do hcg??
    I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THE IDEA OF BARIATRIC SURGERY. I’ve seen malabsorption cause vitamin and essential fatty acid deficiencies (making patients sick the way your sister experienced). I’ve seen “dumping syndrome” cause extreme pain. I’ve seen doctors tout these surgeries because they are so lucrative (for both the physician and the hospital), but the same effect of lowering Ghrelin, to reduce appetite, could have been accomplished with fiber capsules, probiotics, and water. [Bariatric surgery reduces appetite (and food intake) by “stunning the stomach”, reducing Ghrelin levels that are normally produced by the stomach, thereby decreasing appetite.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandma of 7 View Post
    I also had a ND tell me once that a big university which I won't name had a medical wing. They decided to put in an alternative health wing also. They found it so successful that the docs in the medical wing were "each" losing 100grand a DAY in lost surgeries. So guess what their brilliance did...closed down the alternative wing!!!
    Your story doesn’t surprise me. Boca Raton Regional Hospital closed down their “alternative medicine” program for similar reasons of money, money money. When I was an intern at Shadyside Hospital (Pittsburgh), I quipped, “In order to get the money to build a new wing of a hospital, you have to KILL THE PATIENT. Otherwise, you never get the donation for the “John Doe Memorial Wing.”

    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    You misinterpret my post. ... If your ideas had any weight to them, then you could have logged on as "KW" or any other name, providing yourself ample opportunity to defend them. Instead you sought to bypass that by presenting your credentials as an easy means of giving your words extra weight.
    I can see how I inadvertently gave that impression. I apologize if I came off heavy-handed.

    If it seems strange that people would start to wonder about those credentials (read: check your facts), or to question your potential bias (http://www.holisticfamilymed.com/, treating "weight loss resistance" at your clinic), it would seem like you wished us to accept it without holding it up to the light so our jaundiced eyes could take its true measure.

    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    many of those situations are easily explained (surely the fact that they were torqued off by your staff before they even got to you did not help matters much), but even you have to admit that there is a lot of vitriol there and comments about your motives to take a second look.
    Yes, I did “clean house” with new staff. And yes, I have made various efforts to improve “customer service”.

    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    Perhaps I am a representative of an hCG company. Perhaps not. *shrug* If you do your due diligence and read my posts you will see someone fielding other people's questions and going through the protocol twice.
    I’ll apologize if my comment appeared as an allegation. I guess I was making a reference to Heidi Diaz a.k.a. Kim ‘Kimmer’ Drake of the Kimkins diet scam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimkins Unfortunately, “friendly posters” in bulletin boards aren’t always what they seem. You do appear to be an honest broker, so I’ll refrain from making any further comments on the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    Please never feel that contrary opinions are not appreciated here, especially by me. I just wish you had come in with a different "hat" on, so we could discuss this without all the noise.
    Perhaps we will start new again, without the noise.


    Quote Originally Posted by ILuvKats View Post
    Gone are the days when we knew more about how our cars worked than we did our own bodies. Also gone are the days of blind trust in health care providers. This is a forum full of folks who don't mind a dissenting opinion on hcg, they just don't blindly listen to you or your peer reviewed journal cites (definition, if it's not conventional medical wisdom, the good old boy club will not allow it). you interpret their lack of deference to you as a problem....I look at it as refreshing and long over due in our country.
    Good point ILuvKats. I agree that no one should just accept my opinion as gospel, even if I do “try” to back it up with references to independent sources. BTW, I’m more of a dog person, but cats are okay if they have a personality of a dog.

  3. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    1. Perhaps the construction of that sentence is awkward, or my reading is not what it used to be, but you gave the impression that everyone loses hair, which is untrue. I do agree that some people do lose hair, and some never get it back.
    When you are dealing with as many health concerns as most of us are, we would rather be healthy and bald than fat and coifed.
    Not everyone loses hair on a crash diet. Some do, and as it is a known side effect of crash diets, including the hCG Diet, the possibility of hair loss should be described in the “informed consent” doctors give their patients before starting this program.

    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    2. I am not a medical professional, but what test would determine that you have lost protein from vital organs? I ask because I did my last round under the scrutiny of two medical professionals, who watched my liver and kidney function (among other things) very closely for any potential issues. My labs came back perfect or better than before every time.
    Ancel Keys, the doctor who invented “K-rations” that the military used to ensure they didn’t starve to death when fighting overseas in wars, conducted a very famous experiment called the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneso...ion_Experiment He actually didn’t starve the men, instead of 3,200 calories per day, he gave them only 1,560 calories per day. No, he didn’t give them hCG, but this study, so meticulously done, is one of the key studies regarding lack of calories/protein – that it is referenced over and over again.

    Then there were other studies done on David Blaine, the performance artist who did a 44 day fast, and other studies that talked about protein losses on low-calorie diets. I could go on and on.

    Korbonits M, Blaine D, Elia M, Powell-Tuck J. Metabolic and hormonal changes during the refeeding period of prolonged fasting. J Endocrinol. 2007 Aug;157(2):157-66. PMID:17656593[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVE: The discovery of leptin, a hormone primarily involved in adaptation to fasting, led to an increased interest in appetite regulation and appetite-modulating hormones. Here, we present unique data from a case of extreme starvation and refeeding, showing changes in plasma concentrations of appetite-modulating and metabolic hormones as well as biochemical changes, and draw attention to the dangers of the refeeding syndrome.

    PATIENTS AND METHODS: We studied the refeeding period of a 44-day voluntary fast uncomplicated by underlying disease. Biochemical and hormonal variables were compared with 16 matched subjects such that the BMI range of the controls covered the entire spectrum for the index subject's recovering BMI.

    RESULTS: Lack of calorie intake with free access to water resulted in 25% loss of body weight. Haemoconcentration was observed and feeding was started with a low sodium, hypocaloric liquid formulation. During early refeeding, marked hypophosphataemia, haemodilution and slight oedema developed. Vitamins B1, B12 and B6 were depleted while serum free fatty acids, ketone bodies and zinc levels were abnormally high; abnormal liver function developed over the first week. The hormonal profile showed low IGF-I and insulin levels, and elevated IGF-binding protein-1 concentrations. Appetite-regulating hormones were either very low (leptin and ghrelin) or showed no marked difference from the control group (peptide YY, agouti-related peptide, alpha-melanocyte-stimulating hormone, neuropeptide Y and pro-opiomelanocortin). Appetite was low at the beginning of refeeding and a transient increase in orexin and resistin was observed coincidently with an increase in subjective hunger.

    CONCLUSIONS: Our study illustrates the potential dangers of refeeding and provides a comprehensive insight into the endocrinology of prolonged fasting and the refeeding process.



    1: Afolabi PR, Jahoor F, Jackson AA, Stubbs J, Johnstone AM, Faber P, Lobley G, Gibney E, Elia M. The effect of total starvation and very low energy diet in lean men on kinetics of whole body protein and five hepatic secretory proteins. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Dec;293(6):E1580-9. Epub 2007 Sep 18. PubMed PMID: 17878226.


    2: Faber P, Johnstone AM, Gibney ER, Elia M, Stubbs RJ, Roger PL, Milne E, Buchan W, Lobley GE. The effect of rate and extent of weight loss on urea salvage in obese male subjects. Br J Nutr. 2003 Jul;90(1):221-31. PubMed PMID: 12844395.


    3: Bisschop PH, Sauerwein HP, Endert E, Romijn JA. Isocaloric carbohydrate deprivation induces protein catabolism despite a low T3-syndrome in healthy men. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2001 Jan;54(1):75-80. PubMed PMID: 11167929.


    4: Hoffer LJ, Forse RA. Protein metabolic effects of a prolonged fast and hypocaloric refeeding. Am J Physiol. 1990 May;258(5 Pt 1):E832-40. PubMed PMID: 2185664.


    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    3. Hunger is indeed staved off by starvation in the short term. There are people that do this diet for 60+ days. I hope you will agree that feeling almost no hunger for periods that long are surprising.
    Actually, this is the classic “starvation response” that is seen in these starvation experiments. And, in the studies on hCG, including Ezra Sohar’s study from 1959, I quote, “Patients felt hungry during the first few days fo the diet; later hunger was not very strong, but a certain weakness took its place” (full text of Sohar’s study can be found here: http://www.ajcn.org/content/7/5/514.long)

    David Blaine was not hungry during his 44-day fast (only water). Full text of David Blaine’s lab data can be found here: http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article...244-9/abstract


    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    4. Starvation diets, or nigh-starvation diets do not produce targeted losses like this. Heck, no diet produces targeted losses like this. If it's simply starvation, and the hCG is akin to liking fly eyeballs, then why are we seeing this sort of loss?
    I just wonder, why hasn’t anyone, anyone, published data about targeted loss of fat vs loss of lean body mass. Yes, there are some persons on this discussion board who have stated that they lost inches from their waist, that they had BodyPod or other body composition analysis tests done (such as bioelectric impedance analysis).

    I kindly ask you, and everyone else you know, to kindly ask your physicians to publish their data about loss of fat vs loss of lean body mass. The Bariatrician (the American Society of Bariatric Physicians (not surgeons)) has published at least 2 articles that were favorable to hCG. They would publish it for sure. The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition has published the study by Gusman back in 1969 that showed that hCG caused weight loss (admittedly, the placebo group also had significant weight loss). I am sure they would publish the data that any weight loss clinic had, regarding loss of fat vs loss of muscle.


    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    5. There are not enough profane words for how most of us feel about the FDA, so I will pretend like you didn't even mention them
    I don’t love the FDA either. But, I look back to what the world was like before the FDA, and I shudder in fear. Before the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1908, “snake oil salesman” with their “patent remedies” got people addicted to alcohol, cocaine, heroin, morphine, opium, and cannabis, without ever telling patients what was in the remedies they were given. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Food_and_Drug_Act

    The “American Chamber of Horrors” exhibit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_h...ers_of_Horrors, that included 2,4-dinitrophenol (a diet drug that caused patients to burn up to death) sparked the introduction of the FDA and the Food Drug, and Cosmetic Act of 1938. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...d_Cosmetic_Act

    Diet doctors poisoned people with “rainbow pills” that contained amphetamines (causing psychosis), digoxin and diuretics (causing fatal heart arrhythmias), thyroid hormone, barbiturates, benzodiazepines, laxatives etc. The abuses of those “pill mill” diet doctors, led to the Controlled Substances Act of 1970. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substance_Act

    So, for all the harm the FDA has done, approving drugs that should never have been approved, and slowing down the approval of therapies that were later proven to be safe and useful, I’m glad we have them there, and frankly, I wish there was stronger regulation and enforcement to protect us better.

    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    6. Kevin Trudeau brought it back, but we do not tout his reformulation, though we do use his vernacular. Dr. Simeons' Pounds & Inches is the Bible here.
    “Bible” – such a strong word. I don’t know if Dr. Simeons was a prophet, but I don’t think his book is definitive enough to be called a “Bible”.

    I’ve actually interviewed Wilmer L. Asher, MD (of the “positive study” done by Asher and Harper in 1973 [Asher WL, Harper HW. Effect of human chorionic gonadotrophin on weight loss, hunger, and feeling of well-being. Am J Clin Nutr. 1973 Feb;26(2):211-8. PubMed PMID: 4574032.]. Here’s what Dr. Asher said about Dr. Simeons:

    - Back then, vials of hCG came in 5,000 IU / vial, and Dr. Albert T.W. Simeons wanted the diet to last 40 days, so that’s how he came up with “125 IU” per dose. There was no “dose response” study in humans (or animals), to see if 75 IU, 100 IU, 125 IU, 150 IU, or any other dose would work better.
    - The protocol was “inject 6 days / week”, mainly because they were giving injections through a deep intramuscular injection (into the gluteal/buttock muscles), and they needed the patients to come to the clinic to get the injection. As Simeons’ clinic was in Rome (a Catholic city), they weren’t going to be open on Sundays, hence, Sundays were the day off from injections.

    BTW, Dr. Asher got his medical license in 1963, has practiced weight-loss medicine continuously since then, and was a contemporary of Dr. Simeons.


    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    Any validity that a doctor that frowns at hCG, but does not blink about an invasive lapband procedure, is lost instantly. … If you are on a crusade, then I expect it to be disregarded.
    I agree that the lapband is a ridiculous procedure. I also agree that doctors prescribe too many drugs. I don’t let drug reps to get into my office, I have a “no free lunch policy”. I don’t think I’m on a crusade to convince people that hCG doesn’t work for weight loss. I do think I’m pretty focused on stopping medical doctors (and other health professionals) from exploiting their patients for the purpose of financial gain. I can go on and on that subject, but it’s getting kind of late tonight …

    If I missed some other crucial/salient point, please feel free to point it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    Let's play pretend for awhile...
    Ken, I am unsure if you have ever battled obesity in your life, but if you (or someone you care about) were morbidly obese, especially considering all of the anecdotal evidence on this site, and the likely myriad of failures that most have in traditional dieting over the long term, would you try it?

    If you look at the risk vs. reward, most tip the scales by talking down to hCG, but they do not balance it out with the other side of all the inevitable concerns that obesity brings to the table. So they are saying no to hCG because of potential risks versus inevitable deleterious effects.

    I’ve never been obese, but my mom was, and actually did the full gastric bypass operation. Yes, she lost weight, but she also periodically gets “dumping syndrome” exacerbations that are extremely painful for her.

    I do agree there are potential risks to obesity, and doing aggressive things, including a hCG Diet regimen are “on the table” of options to treat weight issues.

    I think that crash diets do have their downsides, and anyone recommending them should offer informed consent of the potential side effects, and not exploit their patients for the purpose of financial gain by restricting their choice of pharmacy. (Diet clinics down here in South Florida, they ALL sell packages of consultations and the drug, and do not let patients purchase hCG on their own. That way, they can get the markup on the drug).

    I also think that persons doing crash diets, including the hCG Diet, are prone to weight regain. Ezra Sohar actually did follow up on the dieters in his 1959 hCG study. It is published here: http://www.ajcn.org/content/26/8/845.long [Sohar E, Sneh E. Follow-up of obese patients: 14 years after a successful reducing diet. Am J Clin Nutr. 1973 Aug;26(8):845-8. PubMed PMID: 4720671]. 27 patients (who previously did hCG) were tracked down after 14 years. Two-thirds of the patients had no weight change from the start of their weight reduction program and 14 years later (they regained all lost weight). Five patients kept off 10% their body weight over the 14 years, but of those 5, all remained in the “overweight” category. And, 3 patients gained weight over and above all the weight they lost. Rather underwhelming results.

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by alcoholswab View Post
    Here is where I offer the soapbox back to you...
    What alternative would you offer up if you are dismissing hCG as an option?
    1. A GOOD ASSESSMENT OF CAUSES OF WEIGHT GAIN.
    A. Behavior
    i. anxiety issues
    ii. depression issues
    iii. lack of meal planning
    iv. lack of food shopping / knowledge how to food shop
    v. lack of meal preparation
    vi. not bringing food with you (and then eating fast food, etc)
    vii. etc.
    B. Diet
    i. excessive calorie density in the diet (beverages, carbs, fat, portion size)
    ii. lack of protein in the diet
    iii. lack of micronutrient density (vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids, phytochemicals) in the diet.
    C. Exercise
    i. lack of NEAT (non-exercise activity) in the person’s lifestyle
    ii. lack of muscle (that burns calories at rest)
    iii. lack of regular exercise regimen
    D. Metabolic Conditions
    i. insulin resistance
    ii. hypothyroidism (central hypothyroidism with elevated reverse T3 is quite common)
    iii. adrenal fatigue
    iv. estrogen dominance (in females)
    v. etc.
    2. A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN OF:
    A. Behavior changes
    B. Diet changes
    C. Exercise changes
    D. OTC meds, vitamin supplements, etc.
    E. Prescription medications
    3. IF HUNGER/APPETITE IS AN OVERWHELMING ISSUE:
    A. Behavior changes
    i. never let the stomach get so empty, so the patient never gets famished, and overeats. Hence, I believe in the “3-hour snack” of 1 hard-boiled egg, or something else with protein.
    ii. always have a protein bar (or a baby-bell low-fat cheese wedge, etc) with you, especially when you leave the gym, so you don’t do something silly.
    iii. etc.
    B. Diet changes
    i. “Volumetrics” describes eating fiber, air, and water – all calorie free, but they fill up the stomach.
    ii. low glycemic diet, with adequate protein, so there aren’t the “hypoglycemic effects” of eating lots of starch (pigs eat lots of corn, fall asleep, and wake up “hungry as a hog”)
    iii. fiber capsules and water, if needed – to fill up the stomach, and to turn off Ghrelin production.
    C. Exercise
    i. when trying to lose weight, I give my patients permission “to not over-exercise”, otherwise, they might get “over-hungry” and might “over-eat”.
    D. Supplements
    i. chromium based supplements decrease insulin resistance, help sugar get into brain cells, so the brain would not be craving carbs.
    ii. fiber capsules and water (as described above)
    E. Prescriptions
    i. phentermine is the most potent appetite suppressant.
    ii. topamax has helped some people with “binge-eating disorder”
    iii. 5-HTP/Carbidopa – has been used for “anxiety eating” and “night eating” issues.
    4. IF LOW METABOLISM, LOW BASAL METABOLIC RATE IS AN ISSUE:
    A. check basal metabolism with a Korr Indirect Calorimetry device
    B. check for insulin resistance, hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue, etc.
    C. treat insulin resistance with diet, exercise, supplements (chromium), medications (metformin, byetta, victoza)
    D. treat hypothyroidism with diet, exercise, supplements (selenium, iodine, etc), and medications (T3 based thyroid medications)
    E. treat adrenal fatigue with diet, exercise, supplements (DHEA, etc), and medications
    F. etc.

    I could go on… but that’s enough for now.

  5. #29
    Super Chief-Ninja Moderator grammy1952's Avatar
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    Let me just say I tried ALL those things. I saw a naturopath for 10 years who fixed a lot of things but my weight continued to be a problem. She saved my life with all of the things she fixed. I got my hormones fixed including DHEA and pregeneolone. I felt great but the weight didn't fall of. When I said I tried everything, that's exactly what I meant. This is something I've struggled with since I was 13 and I'm 60 now. only hcg fixed my weight.

    And by the way, a true weight problem like mine has nothing to do with overeating. You would likely be shocked at how few calories I consumed on a day to day basis for decades.
    My expert Hcg Diet advice is based specifically on the original Simeons Protocol. Grammy's personal protocol:Grammy's Hcg Diet Protocol
    Grammy's author website: ColleenCoble.com

    I am not a medical doctor and my statements are not intended to treat, diagnose or cure any medical condition. Please always check with your doctor for medical questions and assistance. Medical Disclaimer:

  6. #30
    I disagree with any doctor that says the weight loss is from the diet alone. They are missing a key component in their theory: the absence (or absence most of the time) of hunger. There's no way I'd last 2 days on a 500 calorie diet without something else (positive) happening in my body. I'm with you, successes speak volumes to me. I'm down 23 lbs in 36 days, pushing toward the 40 day marker.

  7. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by grammy1952 View Post
    I'm 60 now. only hcg fixed my weight. ... And by the way, a true weight problem like mine has nothing to do with overeating. You would likely be shocked at how few calories I consumed on a day to day basis for decades.
    Grammy, I am very happy for you that you found something that works for you. (Even if it is hCG, really!). John S. Goodwin wrote a great article called "The Tomato Effect" in which he described that useful therapies (in this case, hCG) are rejected merely because they don't fit the paradigm of the world we live in. (BTW, tomatoes, for the longest time, were not eaten in America because thy were thought to be poisonous, despite strong evidence to the contrary (Italians were using them in tomato bases spaghetti sauces, etc)). Goodwin stated that, "There are only three things that matter: Does it work? Is it toxic? How much does it cost?". To that, I add a fourth thing, "Am I aware of all conflicts of interest (so I can make an informed decision)?". It looks like, for hCG and your weight loss, you are satisfied that all four conditions have been met. I'm glad persons such as me, haven't stopped you from finding a solution to your concerns.
    [1: Goodwin JS, Goodwin JM. The tomato effect. Rejection of highly efficacious therapies. JAMA. 1984 May 11;251(18):2387-90. PubMed PMID: 6368890.]

    As for the calorie intake, no, it doesn't surprise me that you have eaten like a bird, and not lost weight. I am not one of those physicians that thinks my patients are liars who are eating like vultures either. When checking basal metabolic rate with an indirect calorimeter, I see that truly, their metabolism moves really slow. http://www.korr.com/

    It has been described that therapy with hCG, which is similar to the hormone TSH, has stimulated thyroid hormone production, and on at least one occasion, making the thyroid metabolism go hyper, in overdrive. Perhaps, this could be one explanation (or not) of why hCG has worked for you?


    1: Hershman JM. The role of human chorionic gonadotropin as a thyroid stimulator
    in normal pregnancy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Sep;93(9):3305-6. PubMed PMID:
    18772462.


    2: Haddow JE, McClain MR, Lambert-Messerlian G, Palomaki GE, Canick JA,
    Cleary-Goldman J, Malone FD, Porter TF, Nyberg DA, Bernstein P, D'Alton ME; First
    and Second Trimester Evaluation of Risk for Fetal Aneuploidy Research Consortium.
    Variability in thyroid-stimulating hormone suppression by human chorionic
    [corrected] gonadotropin during early pregnancy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008
    Sep;93(9):3341-7. Epub 2008 Jun 10. Erratum in: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008
    Nov;93(11):4552. PubMed PMID: 18544616; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC2567848.


    3: Gama R. Hyperthyroidism induced by beta-human chorionic gonadotrophin.
    Postgrad Med J. 2001 Jun;77(908):423. PubMed PMID: 11409388; PubMed Central
    PMCID: PMC1742070.


    4: Goodwin TM, Hershman JM. Hyperthyroidism due to inappropriate production of
    human chorionic gonadotropin. Clin Obstet Gynecol. 1997 Mar;40(1):32-44. Review.
    PubMed PMID: 9103948.


    5: Kennedy RL, Darne J, Griffiths H, Price A, Davies R, Cohn M.
    Thyroid-stimulatory effects of human chorionic gonadotrophin in early pregnancy.
    In vivo and in vitro studies. Horm Res. 1990;33(5):177-83. PubMed PMID: 2125573.


    Regardless of mechanism, I'm happy with your continued success.

  8. #32
    Start where you are. alcoholswab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenWolinerMD View Post
    Perhaps we will start new again, without the noise.
    Agreed.

    All that has come before can be as a liaison between hydrogen and oxygen (guess that would be a menage trois, since O2 is outnumbered) under a stone edifice used to elevate themselves over getting their knickers sodden.

    We move on

  9. #33
    Start where you are. alcoholswab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenWolinerMD View Post
    Ancel Keys, the doctor who invented “K-rations” that the military used....
    I agree that not masticating significant amounts of protein in your body will result in low protein levels, which could very well lead to your body savaging your vital organs for the aforesaid macronutrient. I appreciate that similar tests show that protein is lost from vital organs, but let us compare like with like.

    Let us pretend that you are correct and I have indeed lost protein from my vital organs:

    - How could you show that?
    - What test(s) would you use to show that?


    I have done two long rounds of hCG back to back and lost beyond Dr. Simeons' maximums, so I imagine I am a perfect candidate to demonstrate that hCG has pilfered my vital organs of vital protein.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenWolinerMD View Post
    I just wonder, why hasn’t anyone, anyone, published data about targeted loss of fat vs loss of lean body mass.
    Simply put, data is not being published because people dismiss it despite the overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence. I accept that anecdotal evidence is nothing to write home about, but when overwhelming it should at least pique some interest (doctors, as a rule, nod at me like I am a special sort of simpleton when I speak of the turmeric's effects in reducing inflammation, this scares me almost as much as how fast they are willing to provide a strong antibiotic).

    We cannot blame hCG for the lack of scientific evidence supporting it, or feel that it is not providing what its proponents tout just because it does not have the backing of the lab coat-donning monkeys.

    Anecdotally...

    Last year I was ~350 pounds, and this was measured on my doctor's scale. I saw him last week and I am walking around ~225 pounds. It is not the loss, but the way it was lost that is absolutely amazing (saying "witchcraft" would not be going too far).

    I understand that tape measurements are relatively inaccurate, but when their tale is this profound it is hard to ignore:

    Measurements
    Round 1 (Beginning) Round 2 (End)
    Neck
    17.0" 15.5"
    Upper Arm
    16.0" 14.0"
    Chest
    50.5" 43.0"
    Upper Abdomen
    50.5" 41.5"
    Lower Abdomen
    55.0" 45.5"
    Hips
    46.0" 40.5"
    Thighs
    27.0" 21.5"
    Calves
    18.0" 15.5"

    What is amazing about those measurements is they were taken before my first injection, so I had already lost ~35 pounds on my own, and were taken the moment I finished my last injection phase, so do not include any successive reshaping that has transpired in the last 3 weeks.

    I have lost from everywhere, hell even my hands are bony and I never thought I had fat hands, but after getting my ring resized twice (down two sizes) I realize that I was.

    I went from a 4x to an XLT in 53 weeks.

    p.s. Tomatoes were thought to be poisonous because, like all nightshades, they are to a degree. Their role in inflammation is something everyone should note.

  10. #34
    Start where you are. alcoholswab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenWolinerMD View Post
    “Bible” – such a strong word. I don’t know if Dr. Simeons was a prophet, but I don’t think his book is definitive enough to be called a “Bible”.
    There are many people on these very boards that were considering drastic measures, and these are the ones who had not simply given up and resigned themselves to an early departure from their rotund mortal coil, to get the weight off (lapband being the prominent flavour of the week). They are now out bike riding and taking charge of something that was previously spinning out of control.

    Simeons' protocol has not only affected their health, but the health of others they know, either directly through the protocol being shared, or simply sparking others they care about to learn more about health. All we needed was a little push, some hope, and we do the rest on our own.

    I think "Bible" is the perfect word, at least for me, and if my vote meant anything then Al would be up for Beautification at the very least. If the use of "Bible" offends, then we can drop it to lowercase, making it a " any book, reference work, periodical, etc., accepted as authoritative, informative, or reliable", and call it a form of "religion", since it is a "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons."

    I imagine that the desperation of being morbidly obese is something that is hard, if not impossible, to properly convey. It affects everything. Look at those people as they wear clothing that does not fit the season as they try to hide in plain sight. That 300 pound friend of yours that has more insulation than any 3 people in the room, but has been under a sheet, or behind a pillow all night. Any keys that help you to escape from that bondage is something that many would do anything for.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenWolinerMD View Post
    - Back then, vials of hCG came in 5,000 IU / vial, and Dr. Albert T.W. Simeons wanted the diet to last 40 days, so that’s how he came up with “125 IU” per dose. There was no “dose response” study in humans (or animals), to see if 75 IU, 100 IU, 125 IU, 150 IU, or any other dose would work better.
    - The protocol was “inject 6 days / week”, mainly because they were giving injections through a deep intramuscular injection (into the gluteal/buttock muscles), and they needed the patients to come to the clinic to get the injection. As Simeons’ clinic was in Rome (a Catholic city), they weren’t going to be open on Sundays, hence, Sundays were the day off from injections.
    125 IU of hCG is fairly bang on for a guess, since that's in the range most of us are taking (mine was actually closer to 113 IU). Doctor Simeons played with dosing, as is evinced by the following...

    Pounds & Inches: "If the daily dose of HCG is raised to 200 or more units daily its action often appears to be reversed, possibly because larger doses evoke diencephalic counter-regulations."

    I worry not about the number of days per week for injections, since 6 per week worked for me (read: no hunger on that no injection in either round) and I cannot begrudge a man for having a day off from work per week (many of us get two).

    I do not see Pounds & Inches as Simeons' seminal work to gain new adherents to his diet, or to convince the medical community of the validity of his protocol. I see it as damage control for telling anyone about the diet in the first place, so he could direct them to the tome, so they would STOP CALLING HIS FRIGGING CLINIC!

    Quote Originally Posted by KenWolinerMD View Post
    I also think that persons doing crash diets, including the hCG Diet, are prone to weight regain.
    I do not offer this up to people that I cannot trust to do their own due diligence before sticking the first syringe into their body. It is not the panacea of all ills, nor is it as easy as many advertisers of "40 pounds in 40 days with no exercise" may tout.

    Weight regain is likely in almost any diet, which is why I feel that this is an accurate representation of the chain of importance of this diet:

    Weight Loss < Stabilization < Changing relationship with food

    Weight loss and the health is provides is the driving motivation for most of us, but who cares if you lose 100 pounds if you just gain it back, so stabilization is more important. Stabilization is wonderful, since your body is able to relax a bit (poor liver doing all that extra work), but if you do not change your relationship with food you will be back here again. I do not mean to suggest that food is the scapegoat, as in poor eating, but I am meaning uneducated eating is the problem. If you do not look at wheat with a frown, and see the sugars in corn and potatoes, you're in trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenWolinerMD View Post
    1. A GOOD ASSESSMENT OF CAUSES OF WEIGHT GAIN...
    I am a fan of step-by-step plans to help to resolve problems. That being said it is easy to consider that because I have both feet firmly planted in a solid foundation. It was not always thus. More than likely people are listlessly walking in bereft of hope, since they have tackled many different iterations of what you suggest.

    When you take into account that everyone seems to have the answer, but few actually deliver, it makes it harder to extend trust. Compound that issue with negligible results over a long period of time, needing to tailor the program for each individual (read: cha-friggin'-ching, especially for our American brethren), and requiring the patient to take on the lion's share of the work, and you have a recipe for success.

    Any lifestyle change/diet that leans far too heavily on willpower is doomed for failure. Fear is a horrific long term motivator.

    I am not saying it does not produce results, but you can do all of those things while on hCG (thus providing the foundation for the future), while helping a 500 pound woman to be able to walk without a walker again. She will see the results in a timeframe that is short enough for her to feel empowered as well.

    I did say "will" see the results Out of our huge 200+ person loading group the only 3 people that could not continue the program were the 3 women that got pregnant*.

    * - Yes I did ask if I could procure their urine so I could inject it in my tummy, but they selfishly declined. Likely to keep it all for themselves.

  11. #35
    Super Member! loriegirl's Avatar
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    I would just like to add this to the whole "you will lose on a low calorie diet" thing. You will, of course, lose on a 500 calorie diet but you would be starving to death, literally. I tried it! It is not easy to reduce your calorie intake to the drastic level you need to lose a pound a day. You will become very uncomfortable (to say the least). There are also some out there who say that you don't feel hungry on Hcg and 500 calories because you think you shouldn't be hungry (like a placebo effect). I used Rx Hcg my first round and lost 24 pounds with NO hunger, my next round I was so hungry, weak, dizzy and out of sorts that I quit after 10 days. I couldn't understand what happened. Then my Daughter confessed to throwing away the Hcg in my vial and replacing it with water. I was not taking Hcg I was taking water. You see, even though I thought I was taking Hcg, I wasn't and could feel the difference. Yes, I lost weight that round without Hcg but at what cost? I regained every ounce of the 8 pounds I lost without Hcg within a month. My next round of Rx Hcg I lost another 20 pounds without hunger. So I have done the "low calorie" diet with and without the benefit of Hcg and know the difference. I know there are people who do not agree with the use of Hcg but there are as many (or more) who will swear by it's use and the fact that it has worked for them. I think most of us here have done all the traditional methods of weight loss and if that had worked we wouldn't be here. My opinion is Hcg works and I would do it again.
    The journey to weight loss is measured in baby steps.



    [url=https://www.TickerFactory.com/weight-loss/wu45bke/]

    [/url


    Beginning a new journey. Wish me luck!

  12. #36
    I'll admit, I don't type fast enough to keep up with each and every post to reply to them all. But, over the last week, I've learned the following:

    1. The "hCG Diet" has worked for quite a few people on this discussion board.

    2. The people on this discussion board have felt the benefits clearly outweighed the potential risks. Side effects of using hCG were minimal compared to the adverse effects of the weight they were carrying.

    3. There is a genuine suspicion of the medical establishment, with a well-found concern that even if there was "evidence" that hCG helped people lose weight, lose fat and not muscle, and decrease hunger, such data would not be published. I quote Dr. Goodwin again, who wrote an article "Battling Quackery: Attitudes about micronutrient supplements in American Academic Medicine."

    So, for now, I'll call hCG a "tomato effect" type therapy. Rather than throwing it away as completely useless, I'll say that there probably is a select population that does quite well with hCG, and those persons, when given informed consent, and not financially exploited, should be given the option of choosing this therapy.

    I'm having trouble attaching these files (they are too big for this bulliten board to attach?) - it's a shame, because they are quite interesting ...

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